Curse

Brian the Gladiator · May 13, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

You guys are really going the wrong way. Rangers are inferior to other classes right now because other classes are overpowered. Hard Mode is easy mode in PvE. It's a joke. Why do people who play PvE want to play a game that basically wins for you? All you do is load 3 PvE only skills + whatever overpowered damage skills you have on your bar (usually SoS), take 7 heroes with a wiki build out into a zone and then smash your face against the keyboard until everything dies (takes about 10 seconds per mob). However, if you are a ranger or an elementalist, it takes about 15 seconds per mob, so the obvious solution is to buff rangers and eles to the point where a full team of them could kill a mob in 5 seconds... and everybody will cry tears of joy at how awesome they are.

f****** brilliant.

Miteshu · May 13, 2011, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You guys are really going the wrong way. Rangers are inferior to other classes right now because other classes are overpowered. Hard Mode is easy mode in PvE. It's a joke. Why do people who play PvE want to play a game that basically wins for you? All you do is load 3 PvE only skills + whatever overpowered damage skills you have on your bar (usually SoS), take 7 heroes with a wiki build out into a zone and then smash your face against the keyboard until everything dies (takes about 10 seconds per mob). However, if you are a ranger or an elementalist, it takes about 15 seconds per mob, so the obvious solution is to buff rangers and eles to the point where a full team of them could kill a mob in 5 seconds... and everybody will cry tears of joy at how awesome they are.

f****** brilliant.

Seeing how Necros and/or Mesmer and/or Ritualists can do that.

It does seem like a good idea.

NerfHerder · May 13, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This more or less turned into screwing around with skills and not being serious.
3 Things I do want are...

1. Better pet AI
2. 1 Sec spirits for pve
3. 1 Sec preps

I would be a happy camper.

^This. The Ranger doesnt need a huge update, just a few pushes in the right direction that could come out in small updates.

While powercreep may be the culprit, it would be easier to buff Ele's, Rangers, Paras, and Smite Monks, than to nerf everything else. Not to mention Anet has been going in the direction of powercreep for years. So, powercreep suggestions are more likely to be implemented, just look at the last 3 major profession updates. See a pattern?

Swingline · May 13, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You guys are really going the wrong way. Rangers are inferior to other classes right now because other classes are overpowered. Hard Mode is easy mode in PvE. It's a joke. Why do people who play PvE want to play a game that basically wins for you? All you do is load 3 PvE only skills + whatever overpowered damage skills you have on your bar (usually SoS), take 7 heroes with a wiki build out into a zone and then smash your face against the keyboard until everything dies (takes about 10 seconds per mob). However, if you are a ranger or an elementalist, it takes about 15 seconds per mob, so the obvious solution is to buff rangers and eles to the point where a full team of them could kill a mob in 5 seconds... and everybody will cry tears of joy at how awesome they are.

f****** brilliant.

The only reason Necro, Mesmer and Ritualist skills are overpowered is because they do armor ignoring damage. The Mesmer however is the main culprit with his skills that do typeless damage along with the Ritualist and his spirits. The necro has some skills that do shadow damage but they arent horribly OP, including SS. Discord currently does typeless damage.

A swift and simple way to achieve balance would be to remove most of them from the game by making them do damage that is checked by armor.

Mesmer = Switch damage from skills to chaos damage and have armor check for chaos damage

Ritualist = Make armor check for dark damage from spirits and fix Ancestors Rage. Its silly to have a skill that does lighting damage to also be armor ignoring.

Necro = Make discord deal cold damage and the requirement to only check for either a cond or a hex. Fix necrosis as well to check for both a cond and a hex along with dealing cold damage.

chuckles79 · May 14, 2011, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I saw some individual skills that were either too low on energy but I like the balancing. The one major problem I saw is that you are way too kind on recharge times. You have stances that recharge before the stance ends.
Anet seems to stick to a 33%-66% of recharge time rule.
BTW, I love your suggestion for Barrage. I would recommend making Volley keep the prep removal though, otherwise who would need Barrage?
Some individual gripes:

Barbed Arrows
Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 Seconds
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Preparation. (36 seconds.) Your arrows inflict Bleeding condition (3...21...25 seconds)

So basically it's like apply poison, only costs 5e less, recharges in 8 sec, and causes great degen.

Make it 15e, make it last 20 sec. and have a 25 second recharge (suggestion would make it the only preparation that is ever used.

Dust Trap
Energy: 25
Activation Time: 2 Seconds
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds
Trap. (90 seconds.) Affects nearby foes. Deals 10...22...25 earth damage every second (5 seconds.) Inflicts Blindness condition (3...7...8 seconds) every
second (5 seconds).

First off, you just made HM devourers in the Crystal Desert stronger than Aatxes. Lower damage to (8...14...16) every second and have it only afflict blindness at the beginning for 4-9 seconds.

Glass Arrows
Energy: 5
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Elite Preparation. (24 seconds.) Your arrows deal +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Bleeding condition (10...18...20 seconds).

Increase to 10e, recharge to 25 seconds (one second w/o is still generous) and bleeding condtion 8-16 seconds (perma-bleeding a little silly)

A few other nitpicks but those were the ones that stood out.

I really like the ideas you had for individual bow attacks, you should focus on those.

miriforst · May 14, 2011, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I saw some individual skills that were either too low on energy but I like the balancing. The one major problem I saw is that you are way too kind on recharge times. You have stances that recharge before the stance ends.
Anet seems to stick to a 33%-66% of recharge time rule.
BTW, I love your suggestion for Barrage. I would recommend making Volley keep the prep removal though, otherwise who would need Barrage?
Some individual gripes:

Barbed Arrows
Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 Seconds
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Preparation. (36 seconds.) Your arrows inflict Bleeding condition (3...21...25 seconds)

So basically it's like apply poison, only costs 5e less, recharges in 8 sec, and causes great degen.

Make it 15e, make it last 20 sec. and have a 25 second recharge (suggestion would make it the only preparation that is ever used.

Dust Trap
Energy: 25
Activation Time: 2 Seconds
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds
Trap. (90 seconds.) Affects nearby foes. Deals 10...22...25 earth damage every second (5 seconds.) Inflicts Blindness condition (3...7...8 seconds) every
second (5 seconds).

First off, you just made HM devourers in the Crystal Desert stronger than Aatxes. Lower damage to (8...14...16) every second and have it only afflict blindness at the beginning for 4-9 seconds.

Glass Arrows
Energy: 5
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Elite Preparation. (24 seconds.) Your arrows deal +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Bleeding condition (10...18...20 seconds).

Increase to 10e, recharge to 25 seconds (one second w/o is still generous) and bleeding condtion 8-16 seconds (perma-bleeding a little silly)

A few other nitpicks but those were the ones that stood out.

I really like the ideas you had for individual bow attacks, you should focus on those.

Err? Basically nerfed current versions??

Swingline · May 15, 2011, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Archers Signet
Removed this skill from the list. If anyone has a good idea for this skill post it but I want it to be related to conditions.

Glass Arrows
Reduced duration, increased recharge and lowered bleeding duration. Increased energy.

Disrupting Accuracy
Arrows now deal more damage along with the old effect.

Lightning Reflexes
Increased recharge from 8 to 12 seconds and lowered duration to 3...9...10 seconds.

Body Shot
Added this skill to the list and lowered energy gain but works with any condition.

Dual Shot
Added this skill to the list and moved to Markmanship. Damage is now based upon rank in marksmanship.

Volley
Now shoots only 3 arrows. Reduced recharge

Barbed Arrows
Lowered Bleeding duration. Increased recharge and lowered duration.

Piercing Trap
Lowered the bonus damage but works with any condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I saw some individual skills that were either too low on energy but I like the balancing. The one major problem I saw is that you are way too kind on recharge times. You have stances that recharge before the stance ends.
Anet seems to stick to a 33%-66% of recharge time rule.
BTW, I love your suggestion for Barrage. I would recommend making Volley keep the prep removal though, otherwise who would need Barrage?
Some individual gripes:

Barbed Arrows
Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 Seconds
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Preparation. (36 seconds.) Your arrows inflict Bleeding condition (3...21...25 seconds)

So basically it's like apply poison, only costs 5e less, recharges in 8 sec, and causes great degen.

Make it 15e, make it last 20 sec. and have a 25 second recharge (suggestion would make it the only preparation that is ever used.

Dust Trap
Energy: 25
Activation Time: 2 Seconds
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds
Trap. (90 seconds.) Affects nearby foes. Deals 10...22...25 earth damage every second (5 seconds.) Inflicts Blindness condition (3...7...8 seconds) every
second (5 seconds).

First off, you just made HM devourers in the Crystal Desert stronger than Aatxes. Lower damage to (8...14...16) every second and have it only afflict blindness at the beginning for 4-9 seconds.

Glass Arrows
Energy: 5
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds
Elite Preparation. (24 seconds.) Your arrows deal +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Bleeding condition (10...18...20 seconds).

Increase to 10e, recharge to 25 seconds (one second w/o is still generous) and bleeding condtion 8-16 seconds (perma-bleeding a little silly)

A few other nitpicks but those were the ones that stood out.

I really like the ideas you had for individual bow attacks, you should focus on those.

While I do agree with Barbed and Glass Arrows I don't agree with Dust Trap. Its 2 seconds and that is plenty of time to rupt it, if rupted its on a 30 second recharge and the devourer will be dead before it can use it again.

Aldric · May 15, 2011, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You guys are really going the wrong way. Rangers are inferior to other classes right now because other classes are overpowered. Hard Mode is easy mode in PvE. It's a joke. Why do people who play PvE want to play a game that basically wins for you? All you do is load 3 PvE only skills + whatever overpowered damage skills you have on your bar (usually SoS), take 7 heroes with a wiki build out into a zone and then smash your face against the keyboard until everything dies (takes about 10 seconds per mob). However, if you are a ranger or an elementalist, it takes about 15 seconds per mob, so the obvious solution is to buff rangers and eles to the point where a full team of them could kill a mob in 5 seconds... and everybody will cry tears of joy at how awesome they are.

f****** brilliant.

Agreed, in a perfect world I'd rather Rangers got a smallish pve buff and the others classes were nerfed back to just "very good" level rather than facemashing win op-ness that they are currently. However Anet are retarded at balancing anything and prefer everything to have bigredwin buttons.

1] Damage
Nothing massive, just a small increase on damage for skills and preps to give a slight dps increase.
Maybe some functionality changes to give a bigger +dam if foe is suffering from xyz conditions, maybe help encourage condi builds more.

2] Preperations
A suggestion by someone in the Ranger forum i really like was to have preps last a certain number of shots like "IatS" instead of just 24 secs. Something like 15-20 arrows (i know this is more than 24secs / refire rate) would be nice and I'd also couple that with Barrage not removing them. Recharge times set so standard single shot builds can perma upkeep preps but barrage builds have a reasonable downtime.

3] Rituals
Rework them to even up their cast times/recharge times with rit spirits at a minimum. If possible some functionality/effect/damage changes to make them worthwhile more often than for just the occasional ultra niche foes as they are at the moment.

4] Pets
Fix my Pet AI ffffffs. I love my pets, plz make them not retarded

Brian the Gladiator · May 15, 2011, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miteshu

Seeing how Necros and/or Mesmer and/or Ritualists can do that.

It does seem like a good idea.

Because a game that wins for you is a good idea? Why don't you go play the card game "war" with your little sister and leave those of us who actually want to play a game that is FUN to skill balancing Guild Wars?

Forum Suggestion: Change title of thread to "Nerf Necros and/or Mesmers and/or Ritualists" instead of "The Ranger - skill changes" because Rangers are actually somewhat balanced... unlike just about everything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

1] Damage
Nothing massive, just a small increase on damage for skills and preps to give a slight dps increase.
Maybe some functionality changes to give a bigger +dam if foe is suffering from xyz conditions, maybe help encourage condi builds more.

Prepared Shot, Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, Hunter's Shot, Read the Wind, "I am the Strongest!", Drunken Master, Optional

This has more DPS than any other attack class in game. Making builds is hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

2] Preparations
A suggestion by someone in the Ranger forum i really like was to have preps last a certain number of shots like "IatS" instead of just 24 secs. Something like 15-20 arrows (i know this is more than 24secs / refire rate) would be nice and I'd also couple that with Barrage not removing them. Recharge times set so standard single shot builds can perma upkeep preps but barrage builds have a reasonable downtime.

Rangers are too tanky to make them deal thousands of damage per second like this. Preps + Barrage + Splinter + Orders = EXPLOSION and then throw in the fact that they are unkillable... that's a good balance right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

3] Rituals
Rework them to even up their cast times/recharge times with rit spirits at a minimum. If possible some functionality/effect/damage changes to make them worthwhile more often than for just the occasional ultra niche foes as they are at the moment.

Here's an idea. How about adding res signet to every single NPC foe in the entire game. That suddenly makes frozen soil vastly more effect no? Then give NPCs more defensive protection enchantments. NR Tranq is a lot better too (assuming you spec your party with ritualist weapon spells and heals instead of monk enchats). This is the kind of balance GW needs, not "Make skill X more powerful by making it a brain dead fire and forget explosion of damage". You can make skills more or less powerful simply by adapting the meta around it. It's called thinking outside of the box.

Ritualist spirits are the most imbalanced thing in the entire game right now. So what do we do to solve this? Add more imbalance. Good idea. Don't tone down rit spirits though... that's unconscionable

In response to pets, I actually like the idea of buffing them in PvE. Pets are a fun novelty and I think having them be useful is a fun idea.

Our Virus · May 15, 2011, 12:37 PM // 12:37

I'm guessig everyone on this thread plays ranger alot? I have a suggestion for you guys: stop trying use rangers for hard dmg and use them what they are meant for which is pressure and interrupting. No buffs required. Go do slavers hm on a ranger and dshot the hell out of monks so they can't heal anymore. Now complain dshot has a dmg cap. Rangers take stratigy to use, it's not super retard dmg like necro or eles where you can throw random skill in and blow shit up. Instead of begging for buff, just realize what rangers are meant for and get better at that...

I do agree with the spirit cast time tho. Shit gets real when ur sittin there for 5 sec and ur team kills half the stuff before you're done

Shayne Hawke · May 15, 2011, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

- All skill changes are for PvE only since I retired from GvG a very long time ago and I am not familiar with the current meta. Anet can split skills between PvE and PvP so there should be no problem.

The ability to split skills should never be used as an excuse to outright refuse to attempt balancing a skill for both formats at the same time.

Quote:

- Some skills have been moved to other attributes. The goal is to make rangers more fun, not assassins.

What's wrong with cross-profession combos?

Quote:

Disrupting Accuracy

Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 12 Seconds

Preparation. (24 seconds.) Your arrows deal +3...9...10 damage and interrupt actions when they critical. No effect unless Expertise 8 or higher.

*** Moved to discourage crit barragers ***

Why though? Crit barragers aren't really that much of a problem and don't compete that much with ranger barragers in the first place, last I checked.

Quote:

Expert Focus

Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds

Preparation. (36 seconds.) Your arrows have a 0...4...5% chance to critically hit and do +1...8...10 damage.

*** First part changed because Barrage and Volley would be too cheap ***

This skill is already tied to Expertise, so the only profession it really benefits is the ranger. You say before that you don't want these changes to benefit the assassin more than the ranger, but then you go out of your way to nerf this skill which is exclusively beneficial to the ranger, and could even be a single skill to define why a ranger barrager would be preferred over an assassin one.

Besides, in taking this skill, you drop the cost of Barrage to something like 4 or 5, but you lose the potential to take other preparations which would probably have a greater impact in this situation, like Ignite Arrows or Apply Poison. It allows for a choice between a cheap elite or a powerful one, but this revision of yours just sucks in comparison to how much benefit other preparations can give. The choice no longer exists. That's not a good change.

Quote:

Glass Arrows

Energy: 10
Activation Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 20 Seconds

Elite Preparation. (18 seconds.) Your arrows deal +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Bleeding condition (4...10...12 seconds).

It's beyond me why you believe removing Glass Arrows' ability to "hit" targets that block your arrows is such a buff that the cost needs to be increased and the skill can't be maintained permanently. Coupled with your change to Melandru's Arrows, and you're asking to remove a somewhat unique mechanic for the ranger that's not necessarily useless.

Quote:

Lightning Reflexes

Energy: 10
Recharge Time: 12 Seconds

Stance. (3...9...10 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. You have -10 armor.

*** Changed to give Rangers a decent IAS stance instead of Bestial Fury/Tiger's Stance and a preparation (Rapid Fire) ***

It's like an awful version of Frenzy for rangers. It's probably still good enough though (see: recharge, duration) that it would become an essential spiking skill for rangers in PvP, and any period of rangers strutting raw power in PvP tends to backfire later on. Additionally, I see nothing wrong with the current revision of Lightning Reflexes, especially in PvE, and even more so when used with Dwarven Stability.

Quote:

Practiced Stance

Energy: 5
Recharge Time: 15 Seconds

Elite Stance. (5...15...18 seconds.) You attack 25% faster and bow attacks recharge 10...22...25% faster.

*** Changed since preparations have faster casting and recharge times ***

Possibly as ripe for abuse as your revision of Lightning Reflexes in PvP, if not worse since most of the damaging skills for rangers are non-elites anyways. It would be really easy to create a series of turret rangers with a change like this. It's even worse that it's tied to Expertise, so now I can increase my attack speed, decrease recharge on my bow attacks, and reduce their cost all with one attribute.

Quote:

Body Shot

Energy: 5
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds

Bow Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17...20 damage. If it hits a foe with a condition, you gain 0...2...2 Energy.

*** Changed since Forked Arrow inflicts cracked armor ***

We already have two skills which grant energy on striking a foe with a condition, and this suggestion pales in comparison to each of those and its current form due to its pitiful energy return.

What's this about Forked Arrow inflicting cracked armor?

Quote:

Forked Arrow

Energy: 5
Recharge Time: 5 Seconds

Bow Attack. Inflict Cracked Armor (5...17...20 seconds) if your target is hit.

*** Current in game version sucks ***

Martial professions should not be applying cracked armor because their being the best damage dealers means they get the most benefit, and it is such a significant boost to their damage that it is extremely unsafe to be giving them the ability to apply it and benefit from it themselves. The dervish is the unfortunate exception here, not the rule.

The current revision is similar to Dual Shot in both mechanics and power, so I would not object to seeing it changed, but this is not the way to do it.

Quote:

Rapid Fire

Energy: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds

Preparation. (36 seconds.) You attack 33% faster while wielding a bow.

Won't (or shouldn't) see play with the Lightning Reflexes change.

Quote:

Choking Gas

Energy: 15
Activation Time: 1 Second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds

Preparation.(3...8...12) Your arrows deal +1...7...8 damage and spread Choking Gas to foes adjacent to target. Choking Gas interrupts spells.

Hell, why even bring interrupts anymore? Just load up Practiced Stance, Volley, and this skill, and you can just spam gas on a backline all day. What's your incentive for making Choking Gas recharge so quickly? You're giving casters no kind of downtime in which to react against a ranger which could be shutting down all of their spells.

Quote:

Dryder's Defenses

Energy: 5
Recharge: 30 Seconds

Stance. (5...10...11 seconds.) You have 75% chance to block and +18...30...32 armor against elemental damage.

*** Changed to give Rangers a bit more defense since Lightning Reflexes lost its block mechanic ***

The skill is still awful and nobody will end up using it because your revision of Lightning Reflexes is worth taking the hits, and is also a stance.

Quote:

Melandru's Arrows

Energy: 5
Activation Time: 1 Second
Recharge Time: 8 Seconds

Elite Preparation. (24 seconds.) Your arrows deal Earth damage and deal +8...28...34 damage.

*** Rangers should have a prep that deals earth damage especially if the prep has their own earth goddess in the name

***

*** Changed because glass arrows inflicts bleeding condition ***

The damage conversion is laughable. It's like bow strings don't exist that can change damage types. The unconditional damage boost is extremely scary, especially since this prep can be easily maintained and can be coupled with stuff like your revision of Lightning Reflexes. Even the current revision of Lightning Reflexes could make this an extremely dangerous skill.

In closing, it was really hard to read though these changes because of how they were sorted. I would recommend that you group together similar changes in the same section. Like, all the traps in one place, all the spirits in one place, all the preparations in one place, other skills getting related changes bunched together, etc.

Swingline · May 15, 2011, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The ability to split skills should never be used as an excuse to outright refuse to attempt balancing a skill for both formats at the same time.

What's wrong with cross-profession combos?

Why though? Crit barragers aren't really that much of a problem and don't compete that much with ranger barragers in the first place, last I checked.

This skill is already tied to Expertise, so the only profession it really benefits is the ranger. You say before that you don't want these changes to benefit the assassin more than the ranger, but then you go out of your way to nerf this skill which is exclusively beneficial to the ranger, and could even be a single skill to define why a ranger barrager would be preferred over an assassin one.

Besides, in taking this skill, you drop the cost of Barrage to something like 4 or 5, but you lose the potential to take other preparations which would probably have a greater impact in this situation, like Ignite Arrows or Apply Poison. It allows for a choice between a cheap elite or a powerful one, but this revision of yours just sucks in comparison to how much benefit other preparations can give. The choice no longer exists. That's not a good change.

It's beyond me why you believe removing Glass Arrows' ability to "hit" targets that block your arrows is such a buff that the cost needs to be increased and the skill can't be maintained permanently. Coupled with your change to Melandru's Arrows, and you're asking to remove a somewhat unique mechanic for the ranger that's not necessarily useless.

It's like an awful version of Frenzy for rangers. It's probably still good enough though (see: recharge, duration) that it would become an essential spiking skill for rangers in PvP, and any period of rangers strutting raw power in PvP tends to backfire later on. Additionally, I see nothing wrong with the current revision of Lightning Reflexes, especially in PvE, and even more so when used with Dwarven Stability.

Possibly as ripe for abuse as your revision of Lightning Reflexes in PvP, if not worse since most of the damaging skills for rangers are non-elites anyways. It would be really easy to create a series of turret rangers with a change like this. It's even worse that it's tied to Expertise, so now I can increase my attack speed, decrease recharge on my bow attacks, and reduce their cost all with one attribute.

We already have two skills which grant energy on striking a foe with a condition, and this suggestion pales in comparison to each of those and its current form due to its pitiful energy return.

What's this about Forked Arrow inflicting cracked armor?

Martial professions should not be applying cracked armor because their being the best damage dealers means they get the most benefit, and it is such a significant boost to their damage that it is extremely unsafe to be giving them the ability to apply it and benefit from it themselves. The dervish is the unfortunate exception here, not the rule.

The current revision is similar to Dual Shot in both mechanics and power, so I would not object to seeing it changed, but this is not the way to do it.

Won't (or shouldn't) see play with the Lightning Reflexes change.

Hell, why even bring interrupts anymore? Just load up Practiced Stance, Volley, and this skill, and you can just spam gas on a backline all day. What's your incentive for making Choking Gas recharge so quickly? You're giving casters no kind of downtime in which to react against a ranger which could be shutting down all of their spells.

The skill is still awful and nobody will end up using it because your revision of Lightning Reflexes is worth taking the hits, and is also a stance.

The damage conversion is laughable. It's like bow strings don't exist that can change damage types. The unconditional damage boost is extremely scary, especially since this prep can be easily maintained and can be coupled with stuff like your revision of Lightning Reflexes. Even the current revision of Lightning Reflexes could make this an extremely dangerous skill.

In closing, it was really hard to read though these changes because of how they were sorted. I would recommend that you group together similar changes in the same section. Like, all the traps in one place, all the spirits in one place, all the preparations in one place, other skills getting related changes bunched together, etc.

You did read post #18... right?

Aldric · May 15, 2011, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Prepared Shot, Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, Hunter's Shot, Read the Wind, "I am the Strongest!", Drunken Master, Optional

This has more DPS than any other attack class in game. Making builds is hard.

I noticed that by the sheer volume of prep shot turrents i encounter.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Rangers are too tanky to make them deal thousands of damage per second like this. Preps + Barrage + Splinter + Orders = EXPLOSION and then throw in the fact that they are unkillable... that's a good balance right?

The prep change was a mechanism change with the same result as extending prep uptime either of which i think should be done, don't really see when i ask for super-op-ness, however Barrage+preps could too strong be if not implemented right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Here's an idea. How about adding res signet to every single NPC foe in the entire game. That suddenly makes frozen soil vastly more effect no? Then give NPCs more defensive protection enchantments. NR Tranq is a lot better too (assuming you spec your party with ritualist weapon spells and heals instead of monk enchats). This is the kind of balance GW needs, not "Make skill X more powerful by making it a brain dead fire and forget explosion of damage". You can make skills more or less powerful simply by adapting the meta around it. It's called thinking outside of the box.

Again, not looking for super-op-ness, but a useful attrib line as opposed the the current situation whereby other than the odd occasion no-one uses them at all. If that means changing foes or environment to make them useful that is very cool, if not then change the mechanics to make them work somehow. They are shit in the current incarnation and should be fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Ritualist spirits are the most imbalanced thing in the entire game right now. So what do we do to solve this? Add more imbalance. Good idea. Don't tone down rit spirits though... that's unconscionable

Did you read what i actually wrote at all? "I'd rather Rangers got a smallish pve buff and the others classes were nerfed". I figured that since i said OP classes should be nerfed that it was pretty obvious rits were in that group.....

Ranger rituals are fairly shit with hopeless cast and recharge times but 1s cast/30sec recharge times may make them slightly more attractive to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

In response to pets, I actually like the idea of buffing them in PvE. Pets are a fun novelty and I think having them be useful is a fun idea.

Once again, didn't ask for a buff, the skills seem fine to me just the AI need sorting to make it as effective as the skills should be....

Brian the Gladiator · May 16, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

I noticed that by the sheer volume of prep shot turrents i encounter.......

It used to be hugely popular until it was nerfed in PvP. It is still completely viable in PvE though and it does more DPS than any other attacking class. It's not an opinion or a belief. It's calculus. Do the math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

The prep change was a mechanism change with the same result as extending prep uptime either of which i think should be done, don't really see when i ask for super-op-ness, however Barrage+preps could too strong be if not implemented right.

No. The duration of preparations is fine. Almost all of them can be maintained and the ones that can't are that way because they are extremely powerful. Barrage + Preps absolutely will be too strong the way they are implemented in the OP. Since no other alternative has be presented, I have nothing else to address. Simply saying, "it needs to be implemented right" is not a suggestion. It is a cop out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

Again, not looking for super-op-ness, but a useful attrib line as opposed the the current situation whereby other than the odd occasion no-one uses them at all. If that means changing foes or environment to make them useful that is very cool, if not then change the mechanics to make them work somehow. They are shit in the current incarnation and should be fixed.

What you are looking for and what you are suggesting are two entirely different things. People call unintended consequences "unintended" for a reason. Value is always scaled based around opportunity costs i.e. what you are forced to give up in order to have whatever it is you want. Right now you devalue ranger skills. That being said, the best way to balance the game is to make specific skills more or less valuable based on the situation. When a specific skill is highly valuable for the vast majority of the time, it is called "overpowered" and vice versa. Your aim in balancing skills (for pve) should be to make certain skills more valuable against opponent X, and that same skill not very valuable against opponent Y.

A good example of a perfectly balanced skill is Bull's Strike. The reason why it is balanced is because the effectiveness of the skill is entirely conditional upon many different factors. When I say "conditional" I don't mean to say it is dependent upon having an enchantment or requiring your opponent to be suffering from a specific condition like a lot of other skills. What I mean is that the power of the skill relies upon the ability of the person using it. Bull's Strike, in the hands of a good warrior, is invaluable. Contrast that with a bad warrior and it is almost entirely useless. Also, the skill is conditional to the ability of the person it is being used against. A good caster will be able to predict when a warrior will use Bull's Strike, stop moving, and greatly reduce its effectiveness whereas a bad caster will eat Bull's Strikes all game long.

The OP fails because the skill balances (and I use that term loosely) that the OP is suggesting have no down side. The skills being suggesting are "push button, execute effect" and that is always an unhealthy game mechanic for anybody looking to have FUN in a videogame.

I suggest putting more thought into your balances. Ask yourself, when is this skill good? When will it be bad? What will people be required to give up if they choose to take this skill? Does this skill promote active thought and careful timing? What purpose does it have? Will this skill be fun to play?

EDIT: I wouldn't mind seeing a PvE update making it possible for primary ranger class to bring a pet without requiring them to bring a skill. For PvE only, making all beast mastery skills revive the pet with 5% hp if used while the pet is dead. Just add a check box in the party formation window that allows you to select whether or not you want to take your pet.

reaper with no name · May 18, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Without entering the debate here...

Quote:

it does more DPS than any other ranged attacking class. It's not an opinion or a belief. Do the math.

Fixed that for you.

Xiaquin · May 18, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

@OP Suggestions:

You mostly appear to address activation times and apply some damage increases and decent skill reworkings. I particularly liked DA moved to Expertise.

What you didn't address was the inherent problems of nature rituals in that they grief your own party just as bad as the enemy, not to mention many of the effects (Equinox, Primal Echoes) are totally useless even if they only affected enemies. You also leave most at 45 second recharge, which is way too long. Many ritualist spirits are 30 seconds and they have many ways of recharging them fast, if not instantly.

You also leave too many skills costly. Apply Poison at 15e? I don't care that it can be used with a spear or scythe now, why does it cost so much to do so little? I don't like what was done with Barrage. Glass Arrows (one of the best skills) also moved to 10e and gets nerfed?

Needling Shot needs to be restored, Quick Shot needs to be worth something, Concussion Shot and Broad Head Arrow need to be more wieldy. Skills with senseless drawbacks like Marauder's Shot need functionality changes and skills that inflict a condition need to do more than just that. Conditions like cripple and degen are not that useful in PvE, it shouldn't cost base 15e or your elite to do just that.

I could go on but I'll just stop there. Ending it by saying I liked the starting point but a lot is missing and there are some issues with some suggestions. Thank you for putting it out here though, I hope Anet realizes us rangers are not happy and aren't going to let them forget we are a core profession and deserve treatment.

Brian the Gladiator · May 19, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Fixed that for you.

You made it less accurate. In GToB I can average 80 DPS over 20 seconds against the Master of Damage. Find another build that can do that much sustained damage per second. I have yet to find one. And just to add insult to injury, also make it as tanky as a Ranger with Lightning Reflexes and 100 armor against ele damage. And then on top of that, make it ranged and unable to be kited or dodged due to Read the Wind.

I think my point has been made. People just like to complain.

Swingline · May 19, 2011, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Im working on changing spirits to buff the party and pets

instead of all creatures. If you have any suggestions post them but keep balance in mind.

Aldric · May 19, 2011, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You made it less accurate. In GToB I can average 80 DPS over 20 seconds against the Master of Damage. Find another build that can do that much sustained damage per second. I have yet to find one. And just to add insult to injury, also make it as tanky as a Ranger with Lightning Reflexes and 100 armor against ele damage. And then on top of that, make it ranged and unable to be kited or dodged due to Read the Wind.

I think my point has been made. People just like to complain.

an R/P spearchucker/pet will do 80dps+, whether or not that qualifies on your final point of being un-dodgable is up to you...

Xiaquin · May 20, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

an R/P spearchucker/pet will do 80dps+, whether or not that qualifies on your final point of being un-dodgable is up to you...

Pets aren't ranged.